omerlich From Israel, joined Oct 2010, 30 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11800 times:
During a conference last week LY GM Shkedi had a long meeting with airbus sales during a convention Airbus had in Israel (I work at the place of convention ).
Now it seems things are heating up as Shkedi has met last week Airbuse's Tom Andres in Toulouse.
A few weeks ago Shkedi was quoted :"Airbus has an excellent product and we're studying the possibility of introducing the A330 and A350 into our fleet".
LY's need for rejuvenation is dire the 767 (and the 747) are getting old&tired , it seems that for this time Boeing doesn't "own" that contract
Link :
daviation From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 432 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11656 times:
I'm surprised because, for political reasons, I assumed LY would always buy American products. But on the other hand, the U.S. gives financial aid to many other nations and organizations - the Korean DMZ, Egypt, NATO, many many others - and they have no problem buying Airbus products. So LY should simply buy whatever is best for their business model.
Heavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 634 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11479 times:
G'day
Didn't we have this before? Some years back LY was going to buy A 330ies just before being recalled by the government of the US of A. I doubt we will see an Airbus in LY's fleet - ever.
Stranger things have happened though
Cheers
Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11468 times:
They must not like the price Boeing is offering... this seems likely to be theater. LY is one airline where political considerations are quite likely to have an impact on purchasing decisions.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6798 posts, RR: 5 Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11276 times:
I always thought EL AL already had the 787 on order ? Anyway even if they order the A350, there is always room for the 747-8I
On a more serious note, I believe the A330 would be a perfect match for EL AL on routes where there don´t need the extra range of the A350/787.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2041 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10908 times:
Does the A380 have the range to do JFK-TLV nonstop in both directions?
I would think the A380 would be a natural for LY, because of all the New York City-TLV traffic.
omerlich From Israel, joined Oct 2010, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10746 times:
Ofcourse the A380 has the legs to do it..
It does today longer routed but sadly is out of the question ..
T3 at TLV doesn't have gates that fit the whale.
- indeed the A380 has the legs for this route, though I don't expect to see this bird fly in LY's colours, certainly not just for for this one route, a 77W would be perfect capacity and economics wise.
Mike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10109 times:
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 8): I would think the A380 would be a natural for LY
Haha, keep dreaming!
Quoting omerlich (Reply 9): T3 at TLV doesn't have gates that fit the whale.
TLV recently lengthened its runways to be able to accommodate the A380. As far as gates are concerned, TLV has room for 2 additional concourses to the 3 already there, with one already in planning, so I see that it wouldn't be hard to make suitable 2 floor gates for the whale.
The 77W or 748i are both likely LY prospects, whichever is more ecenomical, which I can see happening in the coming years, and these orders will keep the political relationship with Boeing and the US going.
LY did cancel its orders for 787s, but maybe I could see them also considering A350 variants for this role, although a grand order like this from EL AL is rare. I certainly doubt any order for A320NEOs, because they have some 739s on order to expand their short haul 737 fleet.
LY tends to lease aircraft instead of order new, so I could perhaps potentially see them leasing some A330s if they would take the Airbus option to replace their ancient 767s, and with loads of A340s on the market (apparently) could anyone see leased A340s in LY colours?
Quoting omerlich (Thread starter): LY's need for rejuvenation is dire the 767 (and the 747) are getting old&tired
The 767s certainly need to be got rid of, but there is still life in their 744s, oldest one being built in 1994 - they just need a major cabin refurbishment.
gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2880 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9956 times:
Quoting daviation (Reply 2):
I'm surprised because, for political reasons, I assumed LY would always buy American products. But on the other hand, the U.S. gives financial aid to many other nations and organizations - the Korean DMZ, Egypt, NATO, many many others - and they have no problem buying Airbus products. So LY should simply buy whatever is best for their business model.
Im sure I've read previously in recent times, Israel and the EU trade is far bigger than that with the USA...
Also if the purchase of aircraft is political, I know the Obama administration has been quite critical on some of Israel's policies, and relations between Jerusalem and Washington aren't as good as they have been previously.
But I also know the EU, has also raised concerns in the past.
If LY need to dispose of their "ancient" 767's sooner rather than later, I suppose it maybe easier for El Al to source A330's sooner than 787's become available off the production line, with the current backlogs.
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9923 times:
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 12): Also if the purchase of aircraft is political, I know the Obama administration has been quite critical on some of Israel's policies, and relations between Jerusalem and Washington aren't as good as they have been previously.
Israel's government may be offended by what they see as critical treatment, but the leverage in the relationship will belong to the US for as long as the US continues to provide Israel with substantial military aid. I would be quite surprised, to say the least, by an LY Airbus purchase.
[Edited 2012-06-06 16:31:48]
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
CXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2694 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9569 times:
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 8): Does the A380 have the range to do JFK-TLV nonstop in both directions?
Easily. Keep in mind, EK uses it to fly DXB-JFK, which is far from their longest A380 flight.
Even TLV-LAX is shorter than the longest A380 flight (QF MEL-LAX), TLV-LAX is 6581nm, while MEL-LAX is 6883nm.
Would be great for Airbus to get LY, and probably good for LY as well, with them being able to chose aircraft that fit for them rather than just having one choice.
Mike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9283 times:
Don't forget that leasing A330s/A340s will require extensive pilot training for LYs pilots, whereas ordering new 77W or 748is, or even leasing 772s from other carriers will not need much pilot training, given all the pilots are very familiar with the Boeings.
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 1906 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8840 times:
Ordering Trent engines for their 772s was about as European as LY are likely to go, at the end of the day Israel is massively dependant on US support, financial, military and political...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
omerlich From Israel, joined Oct 2010, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8252 times:
Guys,you keep forgetting the government no longer has a say about LY purchasing.
It is based on the decision of the Borowitz brothers that own LY..
BTW control over LY is achieved through a leasing company that owns airbus jets!
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 19, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7207 times:
Sounds awfully similar to what happened at Hawaiian. The A330 is readily available, and provides a great 767 replacement while giving the crew Airbus experience to in a few years go all A350 (767, 777 replacement).
I don't know how necessary the 747 capacity is for El Al, but I would assume traffic into TLV is fairly seasonal. In times of high fuel prices it is often wiser to forgo some of the peak-season revenues with smaller aircraft to mitigate the losses of the down season. If they do however require an aircraft that size, and their purchasing decision is devoid of political pressure, I would give the A388 an edge. It's larger and more prestigious. If airports like ATL and IAH can get A380 ready, TLV can as well.
Maybe Boeing has become too complacent and Airbus has been bending over backwards to venture into this Boeing-fortress. El Al with an all Boeing narrow, and an all Airbus wide-body fleet.. doesn't sound that utopic to me.
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 12): Im sure I've read previously in recent times, Israel and the EU trade is far bigger than that with the USA...
Israel-EU27 = 15395,6 million Euro. Israel-USA = 5062,7 million Euro. Israel-Switzerland = 2422,6 million Euro. Their imports from the US are only twice that of their imports from Switzerland.
LY need the 744s, for a high demand from London, Paris and New York during the Summer and especially the Jewish holiday seasons. I think we are more likely to see a 767 replacement before a 747 replacement.
TLV is A380 ready, and could pretty easily install A380 gates.
Leasing A330s could be an option for LY to replace the 767s, whilst also giving their crew airbus experience in case we see an A350 order from LY.
787s seem more likely than Airbus still, for me
LY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2446 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6008 times:
There is an article today in Globes which says that El Al is buying 1 or leasing 2 new 787s from Boeing.They lend money to LY, so that LY can either buy one 788 or lease two 788s.
YULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5782 times:
I think experience has showed that there is romance between Airbus and almost every airline who operates the A330 . No doubt LY also wants it, it is a perfect replacement for their old 767s, and potentially for long-haul network growth.
Now, whether or not they will get it is all up to politics.
Seems to be happening, but the article also mentions the Airbus possibility. I think it's highly unlikely they will go the Airbus way, however as a poster mentioned earlier, stranger things have happened.
Mike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4556 times:
Don't forget that 2 other Israeli airlines, Arkia and Israir have ATR 42s and ATR 72s, as well as A320s (Israir) so all this political stuff being exaggerated
PlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4523 times:
This story is in the WSJ. Boeing is offering a $40 MM corporate loan and Airbus is willing to pay that loan back if LY buys Airbus. Maybe some 787s will be available.
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4722 posts, RR: 13 Reply 27, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4146 times:
Would LY ever consider Airbus products for it's short haul routes? I know they fly 737 aircraft. If I'm not mistaken LY has been exclusively Boeing since the jet age began. Their last non Boeing's being Connie's. Did LY ever consider or look into the L1011 when it was coming to market back in the early 70's?
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2160 posts, RR: 4 Reply 28, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3929 times:
Could this have anything to do with that LY 777 emergency landing in TLV? We all saw pictures of the 100's of ambulances lined up waiting for the aircraft to land, there was some landing gear issue, none the less from what I remember from the thread was that there was an issue with how the rotating part of the landing gear was machined with a possible flaw? Seemed LY wanted a lot of compensation, and Boeing was not so sure it was their issue.
Could it be that LY is trying to punish Boeing from this past incident, or any other issue I didn't mention above?
Next Flights: AS PDX-SEA-KOA on DH4/738 in F, HA KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 31, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2947 times:
Quoting SR100 (Reply 41): Quoting zippyjet (Reply 36):
Their last non Boeing's being Connie's.
Wrong - LY operated the Bristol Britannia 175 from 1957 -1966, the Constellations flew only till 1961.
LY Britannia at the Farnborough Airshow in September 1957, prior to delivery. They commenced service to New York via London in December 1957. Their inaugural flight was only a couple of days after BOAC's inaugural Britannia transatlantic service. At one point it looked like LY might be the first transatlantic operator with turbine-powered equipment rather than the second.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 32, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2805 times:
Quoting omerlich (Reply 3): Makes sense to buy the best product availlable,even if it is not American.
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 8): Does the A380 have the range to do JFK-TLV nonstop in both directions?
Distance is less than 4350 nm.
Isn't most, if not all of the LY pilots reserve IAF pilots and thus are part of the decision making process? LY is currently an all Boeing airline, but only have 6 B-737-900ERs on order.
LY is not totally a privately or publicly owned airline, the Israeli Government retains about 15% of the airline, airline employees own about another 10%.
LY has had some financial problems in the past few years, which is why they have only gotten mostly used B-767-300ERs. Also not flying pax on the Shabbat or Jewish holidays hurts their finances.
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4722 posts, RR: 13 Reply 33, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2618 times:
ZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2368 times:
NOTE: I MAY BE 100% WRONG HERE!
As far as I understand, El Al specifically strengthens the floor of the plane (sorry - don't know the term - I mean the surface between the cargo hold and the passenger cabin). A380 would require strengthening two floors which is not economically viable and (from what I understand) is not defined in documents. As a result, IF this is right, A380 is impossible by default. A330/ A350 - unlikely but possible. We'll see.
USAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1411 posts, RR: 53 Reply 36, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2062 times:
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 27):
Now, whether or not they will get it is all up to politics.
Or more likely then politics, Boeing offers a better solution. IMHO, we'll be seeing a 787 in El Al livery, although if they do sign on to the 787, it'll most likely have RR power. Fair disclosure, I'm a Boeing and GE stockholder.
[Edited 2012-06-10 06:04:58]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11359 posts, RR: 50 Reply 38, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1961 times:
Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 48): As far as I understand, El Al specifically strengthens the floor of the plane (sorry - don't know the term - I mean the surface between the cargo hold and the passenger cabin).
Why would they do this?
Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 48): A380 would require strengthening two floors which is not economically viable and (from what I understand) is not defined in documents.
What do you mean, "not defined"?
El Al already operates 747s which have one and a half decks, so I don't see an extra half deck being that big of an issue (not that I understand what the issue is).
USAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1411 posts, RR: 53 Reply 39, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1932 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 51): El Al chose RR for their 757s and 777s. Now you suggest that El Al 787s will have RR.
Why?
And for their 744, if I'm not mistaken. Why you ask? Engine Commonality. maybe???
[Edited 2012-06-10 06:54:15]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
ZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1757 times:
Quoting scbriml (Reply 52): Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 48):
As far as I understand, El Al specifically strengthens the floor of the plane (sorry - don't know the term - I mean the surface between the cargo hold and the passenger cabin).
Why would they do this?
Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 48):
A380 would require strengthening two floors which is not economically viable and (from what I understand) is not defined in documents.
What do you mean, "not defined"?
El Al already operates 747s which have one and a half decks, so I don't see an extra half deck being that big of an issue (not that I understand what the issue is).
(I believe but I MAY BE WRONG!) The floor of the aircraft is strengthened so that in case of an explosion it does not collapse. I remember hearing somewhere that if by some chance El Al wanted to buy 380, they would want to strengthen both floors and this needs some annoying remanufacturing or certification or paperwork or all of them. plus of course the extra weight
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8739 posts, RR: 52 Reply 41, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1628 times:
One thing that I think would hold up any fleet decisions is a plan to get Israel back to easa category 1. If I remember correctly they have been category 2 since 2008 which means no codeshares and no new routes. Getting new planes but not being allowed to increase service poses a problem. I am not sure the FAA would even let A380s from LY inti JFK.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Because this thread is - implicitly - about El Al buying US or European equipment. The general argument is that they always have bought and perhaps still will buy American. So why the RR engines?
USAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1411 posts, RR: 53 Reply 45, posted (11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1132 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 44): Because this thread is - implicitly - about El Al buying US or European equipment. The general argument is that they always have bought and perhaps still will buy American. So why the RR engines?
You'll have to ask them... I would personally prefer the bought Boeing and GE/Prat.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
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